Project:Community Portal/en/Archive 2012

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El Principito

There is no doubt that the original French is in the public domain, but this Spanish translation by Gaston Ringuelet is from a translator who is alive. Do we have any documentation showing that he granted a free licence? How are we tracking such permissions? Eclecticology 19:51, 12 May 2012 (EDT)

This question is for Yann. Probably he knows better. Dmitrismirnov 20:02, 12 May 2012 (EDT)
I had direct contact from the translator who gave his permission. Yann 15:03, 23 May 2012 (EDT)

PD templates

Can anyone explain why Template:PD-old-70-author appears on the pages of very long dead authors such as Shakespeare, Blake and others? Eclecticology 01:03, 15 May 2012 (EDT)

I do not understand what do you mean. Where there appeared in particular? I can't find. We use normally Template:PD-pma-author now. Dmitrismirnov 02:18, 15 May 2012 (EDT)

But anyway, authors could be old, however the translations of their work and articles on them could be newer. Dmitrismirnov 02:23, 15 May 2012 (EDT)
If you go to the author pages for the two authors the box at the bottom still refers "countries where the copyright term is the author's life plus 70 years or less." They should be in the public domain everywhere. The pages for translators Gide and Morozov are correct. The problem may be because the newer templat transcludes the old one ratheer than operating independently. Eclecticology 04:59, 15 May 2012 (EDT)
I am not sure how to resolve this technical problem. Dmitrismirnov 05:09, 15 May 2012 (EDT)
It would be easy enough to create a new template that said that the author's works were out of copyright everywhere. The only problem is that if an author drops out of copyright the template would have to be changed manually.--Poetlister 17:11, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
What seems to have happened at the time these templates were deprecated is that the new template that calculated the status transcluded the old deprecated templates instead of writing a whole new text. The new template should be able to calculate when the author has been dead for more than 100 years. I see no problem with generating texts like "countries where copyright is for 68 yesars or less" even if exactly 68 years does not figure into the laws of any country. Eclecticology 16:09, 18 May 2012 (EDT)

Licenses to phase out

I consider that phasing out non-commercial and non-derivative licenses means that Template:Authorized will also have to be phased out for being too generic to tell whether commercial and derivative uses are too restrictive to be compatible with cc-by-sa and GFDL. I am rewriting Project:Inclusion policy to consider Template:Authorized not sufficiently good for long term. Some "authorized" works are unauthorized for third-party uses other than fair use. Please advise when the alternate website for works with non-commercial, non-derivative, and similar restrictive licenses is finalized, as I have to report what is happening here to Chinese Wikisource.--Jusjih 13:53, 15 May 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for fixing so many of my typos on the other page. That said, I mostly agree. I had left Template:Authorized because it seemed more permissive than what you now say. The term "some rights reserved" lacks clarity for downstream users. Some discussion of alternative hosting is still happening on the commmunity Portal page of the old site, and will no doubt continue as long as the site remains live. Most of that conversation has been happening in Russian. I hope that those more involved with that will report here when answers are available. Eclecticology 15:20, 15 May 2012 (EDT)
Seeing http://wikilivres.info/w/index.php?title=Project:Community_Portal/en&diff=134341&oldid=134334 , I just found that all of my contributions through 6 May 2012, including deleted ones, are already here. Next, we will have to plan where to send works with non-commercial and non-derivative licenses.--Jusjih 07:38, 22 May 2012 (EDT)
It was all done as an indiscriminate database transfer. It will still take time to go through it all. Eclecticology 13:22, 22 May 2012 (EDT)

Information organization

I was looking at pages like Fitzgerald which is an orphan that simply disambiguates a husband and wife, Project:Authors in the English section which looks like it was a good idea at the time, but has suffered from lack of maintenance. The former seems redundant as long as the two names are near to each other on the alphabetical list of authors. Can the latter be updated, or is there a better way of accomplishing what it does? Eclecticology 15:55, 15 May 2012 (EDT)


Jаbbаr Мanaf oglu Маmmаdоv

I think here is a problem. Mr. Jаbbаr Мanaf oglu Маmmаdоv already published his work on the Russian Wikisource: Search. His publication here looks quite extensive. Dmitrismirnov 11:17, 16 May 2012 (EDT)

О_проблеме_«светоносной_среды»

Thank you for the information and link. I do note that the Wikisource page includes a notice that permissions under the OTRS system are on file. I agree with the point you are making. Eclecticology 15:37, 16 May 2012 (EDT)

Translations from Wikipedia

The discussion at Project:Delete#Articles issus de Wikipedia appears to have stalled last September without resolution. At that time it was entirely in French. There are some important points to be considered.

La discussion à Project:Delete#Articles issus de Wikipedia semble avoir arreter sans conclusion le septembre dernier quand c'étaient complètement en français. Il y a des points importants à considérer. Eclecticology 19:17, 19 May 2012 (EDT)

Interwiki link updated

Hello,

I would like to announce that the interwiki link [[wikilivres: on Wikimedia sites has been updated, and now point here. The old site will be closed by June 6th, 2012. Yann 15:08, 23 May 2012 (EDT)

To be copied from Commons

Hello,

There are a few thousand works to be deleted on Commons because of URAA. These could be copied here. If anyone wants to take care of that, s/he is more than welcome. See also commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Various PD-Australia after 1945. Regards, Yann 12:02, 24 May 2012 (EDT)

Good points. Perhaps you might give this notice to key people at commons. This might bring a few new people here. :) Personally, I've never been technically at ease working with media files, and I already have plenty to do without taking on that job. My one concern is that this project started as a spin-off of Wikisource, and is thus heavily textual. Media files, such as would be found in Commons, demand considerably more memory for storage. I would be very interested to have an estimate of the memory requirements arising from taking on more commons-like files. Eclecticology 15:37, 24 May 2012 (EDT)
As a very rough estimate, I'd allow 1 MB per file (file size plus various overheads inherent in the wiki software). So 1000 files would require 1 GB of storage. Also, the overhead in file transfers in displaying a picture is much greater than displaying text. If a page is 25k of text and you add 100k of picture, the overhead goes up by a factor of five.--Poetlister 15:02, 26 May 2012 (EDT)
Thanks. It's something to keep in mind binging policy forward. Even if these files are OK from a copyright perspective, it wouldn't do if they crash the site. If some triage must be applied I would give priority to keeping scans of texts not found anywhere else that support a goal of making available writings that are not easily found. Eclecticology 15:29, 26 May 2012 (EDT)
I don't think images would create any problem at this time. 3,863 files have already uploaded. On the old server, Squid was used for caching images, and the first limit would have been the bandwidth if they would have been a lot of downloads, but we were very far from it. If there is a huge load increase, I would also except that Wikilivres gets more support, and can rent a bigger server. Yann 10:11, 27 May 2012 (EDT)
Indeed, and I am not proposing any immediate change of policy. It is still something that I will be watching. The other long term question remains whether the goals of this project remain more akin to those of Wikisource or Commons. This has a lot to do with the vision that we have for this project as something more than a place to conveniently park files. Eclecticology 18:19, 27 May 2012 (EDT)
Yes. Now that the site has been moved successfully, it seems the right time to discuss about a general policy of inclusion. The site started with French texts only, and has then slowly included more and more languages, and then also images. So far, these different categories of documents have been hosted side by side without interference. Then there is also the issue of previous publication, and of texts copied from Wikipedia. Some original texts have been published. Yann 08:24, 28 May 2012 (EDT)
I'm fine with remaining multilingual as long as we have the manpower to do the regular maintenance on what we have. There is work to be done in building a more uniform approach to templates, about which I'll go into later in some other thread. Previous publication is an important criterion. At Wikisource that has been a significant factor in avoiding the endless NPOV disputes that are a plague at Wikipedia. For translations this means previous publication in any language. With a work like Le Petit Prince some key translations remain copyright protected; our own free translations would be a welcome addition. Initial machine translations under a CC0 licence could be further developed using Wiki principles. Importing or adapting Wikipedia files could easily become an importation of their problems. Apart from any space or memory considertion, I think that image files have their own problems of curation and classification; unless we have the right people for that kind of work we would do better to limit ourselves to the kind of file that is needed to support our text files. Please let's develop any of these ideas in separate threads. Eclecticology 21:20, 28 May 2012 (EDT)

When should a work be considered "abandoned"?

I was looking at Mystic Treatises (Isaac of Nineveh). This has not been worked on since August 2010. Before that scans of the book were made, and (presumably all) its pages were uploaded here. All of it also seems available on Commons. It was rejected at Wikisource, perhaps because the translator from ancient Syriac did not die until 1939. Only a handful of pages were OCRed before the project was apparently abandoned.

My question then: Assuming that a work is one that is otherwise acceptable here, when should it be deleted on grounds of abandonment? What will be our criteria: How much of the work do we have? How long since the contributor last worked on it … or on anything else in Wikilivres? How likely is it that someone else will do the work? Are there any stand-alone elements in the work that can be kept even if the rest of the work can be deleted? Eclecticology 15:48, 1 June 2012 (EDT)

I would not delete a page because the author is not active anymore, if there is any substantial work on it. IMO, criteria for deletion should be: available reliably elsewhere, copyright issues, etc., but not that the contributor is not here anymore. Yann 06:09, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
I would only use that criterion in connection with others. What we mean by "substantial work" is a more interesting question. Does copying images from another source and maybe doing OCR on 12 out of 400 pages constitute substantial work? Eclecticology 15:28, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
Correcting 12 pages out of 400 pages is not substantial work, but importing 400 images might be, especially if the original ones are not easily available. Yann 06:35, 8 June 2012 (EDT)
For Isaac of Nineveh this entire work is already on Commons. Eclecticology 15:04, 8 June 2012 (EDT)

Logo disappeared

Hi, The logo on the upper left disappeared today. Yann 06:36, 8 June 2012 (EDT)

I suspect that this has something to do with shutting down the old site. There is likely something in the MediaWiki files that render the logo with a link back to wikilivres.info. I’ll look more into it; maybe I’ll be able to figure it out. Eclecticology 15:09, 8 June 2012 (EDT)
I had difficulties to join the site yesterday. Except the logo everything seems to work smoothly now. --Zephyrus 18:45, 8 June 2012 (EDT)
When I look at the page source I find a link to
<div class="portlet" id="p-logo">
<a style="background-image: url(http://www.wikilivres.info/common/logo.png);"
If I put this into the address line changing the "info" to "ca" I get the logo correctly. This tells me that the image file was probably transferred like the rest of the files. I just don’t know where to go to correct the link.
The only other thing that may still not link properly is the five little page quality icons, but I may be able to change this by changing the common.js file. Eclecticology 21:00, 8 June 2012 (EDT)
I don’t know either where to correct this. Can these explanations help or are they obsolete? --Zephyrus 02:45, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
Alan has made some progress in fixing this, but not for all skins. Eclecticology 00:25, 10 June 2012 (EDT)
OK for me now. Yann 02:40, 10 June 2012 (EDT)
OK for me too. --Zephyrus 19:33, 10 June 2012 (EDT)

There is also a problem with the Template:TextQuality: there is a question mark in a blue square at the top of any page with {{TextQuality|100%}} instead of an image for example: Rondeau de la suffisance. -- Dmitrismirnov 07:06, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

This is how I see it on Safari browser. When I look at it in the IE - everything is OK. This is quite strange... and I don't understand why this is happened. -- Dmitrismirnov 10:57, 11 June 2012 (EDT)
I use Firefox, and haven’t seen this problem. I have just changed a couple of links in MediaWiki:Common.js from wikilivres.info to wikilivres.ca. Let me know if this makes any difference. Eclecticology 12:59, 11 June 2012 (EDT)
Thanks! Now it looks perfect in Safari as well! Dmitrismirnov 13:10, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

Upload limit

Hello,

It seems the upload limit is 2 MB now. Could it be increase up to 100 MB as it was on the old site, and as it is on Wikimedia sites? Thanks, Yann 06:38, 8 June 2012 (EDT)

I’ll pass this message on to Alan. Eclecticology 15:11, 8 June 2012 (EDT)
It works now, thanks. Yann 02:47, 10 June 2012 (EDT)

djvu preview and index-creation failed

I uploaded today an djvu-file but the preview failed. Also I was not able to open an index file with the uploaded djvu. The format seems to be unknown now. I would be happy if this could be repaired (either for djvu or pdf) to avoid a single page uploading. In the past it went fairly well for djvu and only failed for pdf. --Wassermann 07:39, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

There were two changes that I made in the common.js page. One may have addressed this, but I really can’t say for sure. Anyway try again to see if it works. Eclecticology 13:11, 11 June 2012 (EDT)
No, unfortunately still the same error. --Wassermann 16:02, 11 June 2012 (EDT) ... btw. it just occurs for new uploads. The old once are still fine. See Category:Max Schraut ...
The file seems to download OK (at least in Chrome), but won’t open. This seems like something broken in the upload process, or the old files wouldn’t work either. Perhaps someone with more experience can coomment. I’ll keep looking and trying things. Eclecticology 00:27, 12 June 2012 (EDT)
OK, I have made a check with an old file and it did not work either after the upload.--Wassermann 02:48, 12 June 2012 (EDT)
I think you have to reinstall djvulibre and configure Proofread Page for the new site. Marc 04:45, 12 June 2012 (EDT)
Can please somebody check out if Marc is correct. And if so please reinstall both extensions to the site?--Wassermann 12:03, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
I think that's the most probable reason. Yann 12:54, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
This has been mentioned on the Wikimedia Canada mailing list. No response so far, so I’ll repeat my request there. Failing this, I plan to be in Washington for Wikimania, and perhaps I can find help there. Eclecticology 13:28, 20 June 2012 (EDT)

Template:Nick Adams

I am always pleased to be rid of unnnecessary templates whose meaning is only understood by its originator, or other templates that duplicate what was done by someone else merely because the new creator couldn’t be sure of the function of the old one, or worse didn’t even know it was there. Often there is no documentation at all. So I’m looking at doing some housekeeping with minimal disruption.

Template:Nick Adams appears only on the author page for Ernest Hemingway where all it does is add "[NA]" for those stories known as the Nick Adams stories. What’s worse it does not clarify what "NA" stands for. A simple plain text "a Nick Adams story" would suffice in all places where the template appears. Eclecticology 00:24, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

Seems very sensible; I agree.--Poetlister 08:05, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

Photography: Theory and Practice

I have not closed wikisource:en:Wikisource:Possible_copyright_violations#Photography:_Theory_and_Practice because:

  1. There are so many templates that I have not brought here, when I did not expect them.
  2. There are uncertainty to whether the related pages can really be kept on English Wikisource in Florida, USA.

Would someone please assess whether Photography:_Theory_and_Practice should stay on English Wikisource or be brought here? If staying on English Wikisource, we delete the pages here. Otherwise, some missing templates have to be brought here, but this is a complex work.--Jusjih 05:59, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

From a legal copyright perspective I see no problem with with hosting this work here. There is currently a problem with uploading .djvu files (see above at #djvu preview and index-creation failed). Try as I may the problem is well beyond my understanding.
What concerns me in this is the importation of complex templates applicable to a single work. Are there no generic templates that would accomplish the same result? I already find that we have any number of templates whose effects are obscure and which are completely lacking in documentation. Eclecticology 14:34, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
Thanks. I do know it fine to host this work here in Canada. One possible solution is to import all related templates through wikisource:en:Special:Export by checking the box "Include templates". If no other comments, I will import all related templates and then delete the pages on Wikisource.--Jusjih 12:10, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
Fine. Still, this is no guarantee that the templates will work properly, or that anyone here will know how to fix them. Eclecticology 13:25, 20 June 2012 (EDT)

Polish authors works on Wikilivres

Is it possible to publish here works of Polish authors who died more than 50 years ago? I read Canadian copyright law and Rule of the shorter term and it seems that it would be possible. There in Poland copyrights last generally 70 years p.m.a. Poland has no paragraph of rule of the shorter term in Polish copyright law but it is a member of European Union and implemented EU directive 93/98/EEC on harmonising the term of copyright protection. Electron   03:58, 27 June 2012 (EDT)

Yes, it is possible. The works could not be published in Poland, but it is allowed under the Canadian law. Yann 15:34, 27 June 2012 (EDT)
Agreed. The other point to be considered is that Canada does not have any restoration rights. Thus, if a work went into a foreign public domain at some time in the past, the rule of the shorter term would come into play at that time; a subsequent restoration in that foreign jurisdiction should not apply in Canada. Also if an EU country has a 25 year rule for posthumous works that rule would trump the Canadian 50 year posthumous rule. Eclecticology 02:56, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
Thanks for the answer. So I am going to start Polish section here :) Electron   07:49, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
Welcome to Canadian Wikilivres. If a Polish work was published in or before 1922, thus public domain in the USA, but it is still copyright-restricted in both Canada and Poland, i.e. its author is known not to have died for more than 50 years, please host it at Old Wikisource. If public domain in Canada and the USA, but still copyright-restricted in Poland and unacceptable at Polish Wikisource, i.e., pre-1923 publication with death of more than 50 years but up to 70 years, perhaps Project:Copyrights#Where_to_publish would indirectly suggest using Old Wikisource. Splitting works in one language into Canadian Wikilivres, Wikisource subdomain, and Old Wikisource already happens to some languages like Chinese, Czech, and German, as pre-1923 publication does not automatically enter the public domain in China, Czech Republic, or Germany.--Jusjih 09:06, 29 June 2012 (EDT)
Thanks for the explanation. Generally I plan to put here texts by Polish authors who died more than 50-ty but less than 70-ty years ago and these texts are not PD-US-1923. Regards Electron   10:49, 29 June 2012 (EDT)
I regularly find authors who published before 1923, but who were still alive and healthy 50 years ago. Within very limited parameters I want to push the Canadian copyright envelope on some of these in a manner consistent with accepting legal responsibility. Eclecticology 15:24, 29 June 2012 (EDT)
Well, every country has its customs... On the other hand, in my opinion, PD-US-1923 is not a bad idea. There is sometimes very hard to find out the date when an author died. But the date of the work publication is known, usually. I had problem to publish leagally some old works in Polish because I don't know the date of the author death (you know: there in Europe we had rather "interesting" XX century with meny wars and revolution and sometimes we don't know when and where a person was misssing ;) So, fixed PD date is be very useful, sometimes... Electron   16:48, 30 June 2012 (EDT)
Indeed it is much easier to base our decisions on the publication date. I have an interest in periodical publications where knowing how long the author of an article lived is more difficult than with whole books. Many of them wrote all their articles when they were in their 20s, and went on to live for another 60 years or more too much. The 1923 rule needs to be kept in mind informally, but always with the awareness that it is an American rule. Eclecticology 20:54, 30 June 2012 (EDT)

Unable to import pages

Special:Import keeps failing. This has to be addressed, or works cannot be imported from other wikis. Thanks.--Jusjih 10:30, 4 July 2012 (EDT)

It is because this MediaWiki 1.16.2 has slight different format of export files from Wikipedia Mediawiki. From Mediawki 1.19wmf1 the .xml file format has been changed -> from export-0.5 (before) to export-0.6 (now). It is possible to fix files by hands:

There are 2 new marks:

<ns>0</ns> or <ns>xx</ns> where xx=other number of the space names
....
<sha1 />

in the code it looks like:

<ns>0</ns>
<id>88256</id>
<sha1 />

When you get rid of all:

<ns>0</ns>
<sha1 />

it should work. I tried this myself.

We have the same problem on Wikia projects, but Wikia Mediawiki is changing to MediaWiki v. 1.19, now. Electron   11:41, 4 July 2012 (EDT)

I tried your way unsuccessfully. We should not have to fix files by hands to import.--Jusjih 12:42, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
Yes, we shoudn't. But I don't know other way... Other way would be upgrade of MediaWiki to v. 1.19 or higher.
I used myself this way to import some files from MediaWiki 1.20wmf2 to my wikia site (MediaWiki 1.16.5) and it works. But some editors or word proccessors can add some unnecessery formats to xml files. Before fixes:
  1. I changed the end of the file name .xml to .txt,
  2. fixed the file (cut out all <ns>xx</ns> and <sha1 /> from the file by find & replace)
  3. I changed export-0.6 to export-0.5 (but it is not important)
  4. write the file
  5. changed the file name from .txt to .xml.
In MS Word 2003 it works perfectly, but in MS Word 97 it dosn't work - it adds some waste bits to the file.
Others WP I haven't tried.
If you can open such rebuilt file by an internet browser (by Open a file...) it means that it is OK. If not - it ussually means that WP add some waste bits. And better way is to find a very plain WP, that works with plain text. Electron   15:16, 4 July 2012 (EDT)

I appreciate these comments. Unfortunately this all addresses that aspect of managing the site where I am completely clueless. I will ask Alan about upgrading to 1.19, despite concerns about what that could break. Hopefully that won’t be too much. Eclecticology 17:45, 4 July 2012 (EDT)

If Special:Import remains malfunctioning unfixed, I will have to ask Chinese Wikisource to find a new website in Greater China to move Chinese pages out of here without traditional and simplified Chinese converter.--Jusjih 11:07, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
Just for the record: on my PC I have the (very old) version 1.7.1, on my laptop there is 1.18.3. On both I tried to import (by import upload of course) an article from the Czech wikisource and from here (a chinese one) - both succesfull. the I tried to import an article from the Czech wikisource up to here - no result, neither transwiki import nor import upload. -jkb- 12:39, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
I still cannot import from Chinese Wikisource, whether with Mozilla Firefox or Internet Explorer.--Jusjih 17:12, 28 August 2012 (EDT)
I still cannot import from Chinese Wikisource. Would someone please fix the problem?--Jusjih 12:48, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
I am afraid that there is not other way (despite I described above) to fix the problem than upgrade Mediawiki to version 1.19 or higher. The curret version you can chack there -> Special:Version. Electron   03:48, 22 September 2012 (EDT)
I'm really not sure if it depends on the MediaWiki version here. See above - I have 1.7.1, on my PC and 1.18.3 on my laptop. I can import on both, even from the Chinese Wikisource (tested), but no import upload is possible here with the version 1.16.2 (which is in between). It probably depends in the installation preference of the MediaWiki of WL, which are not editable for us. Somebody who has the access to the files like LocalSettings.php and other config files should have a look there. -jkb- 09:02, 22 September 2012 (EDT)

Project:Inclusion policy - what about CC-BY?

I read Project:Inclusion policy and there is no:

  • CC-BY licese that is more free than CC-BY-SA...

It was omitted knowingly and wilfully or it was omitted by oversight? Electron   16:04, 4 July 2012 (EDT)

The normal presumption is oversight unless there is evidence to the conntrary. Simple CC-BY does not appear to have been on any historical versions of the page. I suppose you’re right about a simple CC-BY being more free in that it does not have the viral feature that derivatives must be under the same licence. It does impose a condition on the downstream users. I am prepared to consider adding it, but would like to hear other opinions first. Eclecticology 17:35, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
As I understand it, the only real condition is that you must acknowledge your source, which any CC licence requires. I am happy to allow it.--Poetlister 08:33, 8 July 2012 (EDT)
Any free licenses should be fine, including CC-BY. Yann 05:49, 17 July 2012 (EDT)

Serait-il possible d’avoir également une page sur le statut de Wikilivres : qui l’héberge, à qui le site appartient, comment le projet est géré, etc. ? Merci. Marc 07:15, 18 July 2012 (EDT)

Fair dealing

In the wake of 5 fantastic decisions affirming user rights by the Supreme Court of Canada, I am taking a close look at fair dealing, and how it could affect the future of the site. Eclecticology 01:56, 13 July 2012 (EDT)

Wsexport

It would be great to be able export books in EPUB form. Is there any possibility of implementing Wsexport in Wikilivres? I don't know how much work is involved in porting it, so apologies if it's beyond current resources. Chris55 06:19, 23 July 2012 (EDT)

I don’t know anything about this either. I’ll wait for more technically minded people to respond. Eclecticology 14:12, 23 July 2012 (EDT)
I should have put this link which has links to most things. Chris55 14:24, 23 July 2012 (EDT)

Fishta now on the Oldwikisource

2009 I imported some 9 works by Gjergj Fishta from the Oldwikisource to here as it was a copyvio there (69 years p.m.). Now they have been restored on the Oldwikisource, see here and here. Should they to be deleted here or not? I think yeas and I can do it, but to ask first is better. I would keep the author's page anyway and I wouzld provide a link. -jkb- 13:03, 10 August 2012 (EDT)

I agree. That’s my short answer. In general I wouldn’t apply this as an absolute rule. In this case the material was imported, and there is no-one here with a direct interest to maintain it or, for that matter, anything else in the Albanian language. For some other material where the contributor appears to have a broader plan I would give them wide latitude on this rule. Eclecticology 17:33, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
Yes, the texts were not originally uploaded to Wikilivres, but imported from Oldwikisource, so I think I will delete them (nine texts by Gjergj Fishta: 28 Nanduer 1913, Dëshmorëve, Gjuha Shqipe, Kanuni Parathâne, Marash Uci (Kënga e Dymbëdhjetë), Shqipnia e Lirë, Shqypnia, Shqypnisë, Çohi të Dekun); there are another two texts by Faik Konica (Analiza e Doktor Gjilpëra, Vepra), that will be free by January 1st 2013 and can be deleted later on. I will keep the author pages anyway. -jkb- 03:40, 14 August 2012 (EDT)

PD-pma

I have been looking at {{PD-pma}} and experimenting with {{PD-pmx}}. This is mostly with a view of eliminating the need to link through an otherwise deprecated template. The study is ongoing, but comments are welcome. Eclecticology 01:57, 24 August 2012 (EDT)

It seems good, the code is shorter as well. I do not use PD-pma as I integrated the code into the template {{Infodole}} which contains another informations on the work (the parametre "Rok" = Year), but I guess I will change the code there for your new one as it is better (and mightbe the link to the licence durations on enWP is usefull). -jkb- 03:25, 24 August 2012 (EDT)
P.S. When finished, the text "This work is in the public domain in countries where..." etc. should be transladed in Project:Localization. -jkb- 05:13, 24 August 2012 (EDT)

I’m also wondering whether we really need separate templates for the works and the authors. With a little adjustment to the wording the same one could be made to apply for both.

Your integrated approach with "Infodole" is basically a sound idea, and could be applied in a similar way to other languages. What I have found here is that people draw their formatting inspiration from the Wikisource in their own language. These have often gone on very different paths, each of which works well in its own context. The question becomes one of how to balance uniformity with the innovation that benefits from diverse experience. Eclecticology 15:57, 24 August 2012 (EDT)

We have discussed the problem of similar templates in different languages quite short sometime 2006 or 2007. It is difficult.
1) it could be that different languages (i.e. different culture traditions as well) needs different items that are not necessary in other languages
2) On Wikilivres (quite similar to Oldwikisource) the cooperation between the active editor is not as close as in a Wikipedia projects, where every shitty little problem must be discussed seventeen times before it can be solved [:-)]...
That meens: the editors who develop here the language sections are like to be initiative from the beginning, without big discussion on every item with the others. Very often it concerns the specific concept of the language section, that can be different from the others, and you need some specific templates etc.
Now, after this developed this way a longer time it could be rather difficult to reach a unifying "backwords". For example: you made a draft for the template PD-pma/x, which is good and I would support unifying where it is possible. But, 2006, as I started the Czech section, I wanted to have an information box for different items, thus I developed the template {{Infodole}} (that means simply "information on the bottom", as I have "Information on the top" as well) and integrated PD-pma into it. It would be no improvement for me to start usig the new PD-pma/x, and I think you will find similar situations here everywhere.
On the other hand there is a lot of things that we should try to keep unified in every case: i.e. the new PD-pma/x in sections, that have no sufficient alternative fot it, the same author page (in every case!) etc. Anyway, let's keep on discussing it. Regards -jkb- 06:24, 26 August 2012 (EDT)

The endless discussions of little details is certainly one of the issues that drives people away from Wikipedia, and into projects like this. Even discussing that problem becomes yet another endless discussion. A lot of that seems to be editors insisting that they have the only right way of doing things. Sometimes dictatorial powers are very handy, but should be used only where absolutely necessary.

Working in an open-ended multilingual environment is indeed a challenge. That kind of environment is what I envisioned on the very first day of Wikisource. Libraries store books about the same topic together irrespective of the language in which the books are written, and there certainly are books written that include multiple languages. The risk in such an environment is to take on more than we can handle, and to impose a level of standardization that just won’t work. Introducing another language won’t work unless there is someone willing and able to curate material in that language. That was my point when I commented about the Albanian material, and my criticism would be even stronger when it comes to the Georgian material.

When it comes to templates I believe that they should be kept to a minimum. Those that remain should be clearly understandable by those people who became active long after any given template was designed. This would discourage inventing new templates just because the newcomer can’t find the one that he needs. I would avoid multilayered transclusions that are nearly impossible to trace. It’s probably easier to standardize the lower level modules like PD-pma than the higher level ones like Infodole. The higher level templates can include lower level modules, but they can also include culturally specific details. Eclecticology 15:21, 26 August 2012 (EDT)

Beside the fact that we probably means two different thing with the term "culturally specific details" Iagree that there are plenty of templates that are not really needed (beside the fact that some of htem have colours that I cannot look at :D). And, additionally, the use of them is partially wrong. The best it woud be you make a proposal how to change it and what to change. The great challenge will be that more users here will participate on the discussion and on the changing the status quo. By the way - I will never make such a mistake like the import of the albanian and georgian texts again. The user promissed me to work here a bit and to provide the documents with our templates, but nothing happened (georgian). If you think it would be better to delete them, so it would be OK for me, they are deleted on the Oldwikisource where they can be restored when PD. Regards -jkb- 10:24, 28 August 2012 (EDT)

I have looked at some of the other details for the template and find that they don’t do much that is usefull. The top section seems to do nothing but put that icon at the top right of the page. It’s redundant if it’s already in the notice. I’m also questioning why the copyright notice is at the bottom of the page; it would be more sensible to make it discretely a part of the page header. I do like the idea of having colour-coded headings for different kinds of pages, though your difficulty with some colours make me hesitate. I would not want to be causing epileptic seizures. Eclecticology 04:57, 5 September 2012 (EDT)

No, I don't think so. The upper part of the template just links to the licence information on the bottom. This link seems to be necessary in such cases (and there are many!) when somebody used a wrong (old) title or header template where there is no notice line (see the most old French or English pages). More over, you cannot integrate these informations into the header: which ones yes and which ones not? Licence? Source? Year and place of the edition? Info on impoertant other editions? Many of the works here unfortunately do not have such informations - and I'm about to claim, that e.g. the source must be everywhere. This was the reasen that I started to use the template "infodole" where I can integrate all such informations and some ones more. The additional advantage: I keep the header free off other informations than title and author as I do not think it could be done "discretely" - every additional information in the header does the header complicated for the person who wants to read a text. Additionally, I saw many pages where these informations are on the talk page of the article as well (what I wouldn't favorize neither). But anyway, if you strike the upper part of the template or not, you will get very huge problems to unify this in the articles where there is no licence template. I am afraid that you could not use a bot for this job: I compared some old pages (mostly english or french) and I found many, where the templates header and title are placed wrong or where other templates are in use. You should have to controll page by page - big job. -jkb- 04:40, 6 September 2012 (EDT)

There’s much to think about there, but for now let me address just the upper part of the template. Without you mentioning it, the only effect that I would see from that is putting SemiPD-icon.svg at the top right of the page. There is nothing intuiitive about clicking on it to go to the bottom of the page, and there is nothing in the documentation for the template to tell us that. How is anyone to know that it does that? Eclecticology 15:41, 6 September 2012 (EDT)

this way? :-) (we could surely make it better or in other way ... -jkb- 17:59, 6 September 2012 (EDT)
But you are fully right, it is not the best solution, and more or less not intuiitive. My link in the notice line of the template titleCS or headerCS ist much better as there is not only the icon but a text as well, see e.g. Za sto roků and all the subpages in the content. -jkb- 18:08, 6 September 2012 (EDT)

Yes. Essentially all that template:Infonahoře does is link to the information box at the bottom. This is the same as what the first part of template:PD-pma does. And it is placed in the header! Infodole includes more than just a basic licence statement; it also has other metadata. So generally I agree with that. The problem then with the pma template is that iit tries to perform two unrelated tasks, instead of doing one well. Maybe breaking this up into two different templates in a way similar to what you have done would make more sense. Whether this links to the bottom of the page or to the talk page doesn’t matter much to me. Eclecticology 14:38, 7 September 2012 (EDT)

A link in the header, linking to the information, is OK, the information itself not (my opinion). The advantage is, that on the linked place I can insert as many informations as necessary without disturbing the header. If you put the metadata template on the bottom or on the talk page, it really doesn't matter. I link to the bottom for this reason: Nearly all works in Czech I edited here contains one or more pages with the content but also something like a main content page - see e.g. Řím which is the main page for some 40 single parts. Even if I havfe a work that could issue on one page only I try to make two pages: see Novoroční gratulace 1924-1935 which is the main "content" page for some fourteen very short parts on one page (I link with the help of anchors in such cases). On this way I can insert the template "infodole" with all meta infos on the bottom of the main page, on the other pages with the parts pof the wort there is only a short link in the header linking to the main page - and nothing else. Thus, the work Řím has only one template "infodole", not 40. But, it is quite easy to use this system when you start a language section, it is very difficult when not inpossible to make it later for older works. -jkb- 10:14, 9 September 2012 (EDT)

In principal, I think we agree. In a book of many chapters we certainly don’t need to repeat the same material for every chapter. Doing so would only provide places for new errors to creep in. The main agreement: A minimalist header with a link to a footer (or sometimes a talk page) which can be as long as situations require. One template that seems to have developed great clutter at the top is template:AA. It’s great to have multilingual author pages, but there comes a point where it’s self-defeating. I can attack that problem at a later time. I appreciate the difficulty of making the changes now, but not making them just encourages the problem to continue into the future.

One difficulty I’m having is understanding the "Int:" template, which dooesn’t show up in the list of templates. Is there documentation for this somewhere? Eclecticology 17:14, 9 September 2012 (EDT)

The AA page is OK, I like it. Sure, if we would have twenty languages here then ... :-)
You mean {{int:something - ?? It is no template but a sort of a magic word, a function like subst:, that transcludes MediaWiki / system messages into a page. -jkb- 17:57, 9 September 2012 (EDT)

The AA page is not an immediate concern. There are plenty of other things to do.

The problem with a "magic word" like that is that it is nowhere made clear that it does that and why it’s necessary. It seems a waste of effort to write "{{int:Works}}" when simply "works" will do. Eclecticology 22:53, 12 September 2012 (EDT)

1. ack, AA is not a problem at all, more or less sufficient
2. {{int:xxx}} is something else than {{subst:xxx}} as it is possible to transpond some parameters as well which is not possible with subst; therefore, when you insert "{{int:Works}}" so the word "Works" can be translated into other languages according our localisation (as the localization pages are MediaWiki pages i.e. messages); yes, the first time I saw it was 2009 here and I had to search a long time. Then I found it in de.wiki, see here, but there is no such help in enwiki; as it is a Mediawiki function you can find it on the MediaWiki pages, see e.g. #Localisation.... -jkb- 04:20, 13 September 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for the links. Localisation is very valuable in a multilingual environment, but understanding how it works in the background can be quite challenging.

In experimenting with the anchor at The Albatross it struck me that the link to the metadata could be incorporated into the various header templates. Once this is done the top part can be removed from the PD-pma templates. By adding the "metadata" anchor to the PD-pma template, and later to an "Infodole"-like box, it really doesn’t matter at this stage that the anchor is there twice during a transitional period. This approach should work around eny need to deal with most articles individually. Eclecticology 15:38, 13 September 2012 (EDT)

I’ve made the changes to Template:PD-pma and Template:poem; it seems to be working. I’ll wait to see if any bugs or problems appear before I apply it to the other header templates, or otherwise develop this idea further. Eclecticology 17:59, 13 September 2012 (EDT)

I have to see your tests tommorrow. Just a note: you can either use the anchor targets by inserting {{Anchor|xxx}} or you can do the same with <div id="xxx"> - just what I did in the template "infodole", you can link to both with "#xxx". And, in fact, your test in Albatros on the top was the same what I did in the Template:infonahoře, linking to the bottom (the template:infonahoře [up to yesterday template:informaceCS] is on all Czech header and title pages in the notice line and is linking to the metadata info on the bottom); the only difference is that I do not use simply "#bottom" but "BASEPAGENAME#bottom" so that I can link from subpages to the content page as well - see the notice line in Třetí kniha lyriky (= main content page) and Třetí kniha lyriky/Láska (subpage with a part poem).
N.B. What you have done in the Template:Poem with [[#Metadata|Link to further information]] is just the same what I have in the Template:infonahoře - with the difference, that my text there is localised (and I have there the ©-icon). -jkb- 19:10, 13 September 2012 (EDT)

This is good! I suppose that I avoided the "div" function, because I have yet to understand how it works. I’ll keep in mind the use of "BASEPAGENAME" when I begin to work on subpages. I generally agree that the metadata does not need to be repeated on each subpage. I have no problem with localizing text for the metadata link. I don’t think we really need the ©-icon, since the intent of the metadata section will be to provide more than just copyright information. The PD-pma anchors on "PD", and by putting it on "Metadata" I was hoping for broader application. Eclecticology 13:41, 14 September 2012 (EDT)

P.S. Short to your change in the Template:Poem: as I mentioned yesterday it is very very similar to the link in my Template:infonahoře. I would suggest that we use a template as well: 1. it is easier to make changes, 2. I can redirect my Template:infonahoře to the new template (so that will unify it a bit), and 3. it is easier to localise the text for the other languages (so as my template is). We can name it e.g. something like Template:LinkMetadata, and the link will go to #Metadata, which will be somewhere at the bottom and will contain either "Anchor|Metadata" or "id=Metadata". But: I would suggest to place it in the parametre line notes. Then we can discuss the unifying of the main templates like Header and Title. -jkb- 13:13, 14 September 2012 (EDT)

Sorry about the edit conflict. :) My choice of the word "Metadata" was based on having a modern word that would be understandable across languages. Sometimes it’s hard to know when a term should be the same across all languages, and when it should be localized. I agree with having a general footer template similar to what you have created in Czech. The footer should probably be more open-ended than the header, but what should be in either top or bottom will be the subject of a whole new thread. Eclecticology 14:09, 14 September 2012 (EDT)

Respond to your both edits: Well, the ©-icon is not that necessary; the advantage is, that the licence is still the most important info we can offer there, and it is good to see - but ok. Yes, metadata, metadata-link, metadata-info or something like that is ok for every language indeed. And, as I mentioned before, it should be localized in any case (the translation is ready in fact, see {{Infonahoře}} which gives
Info Simple bw.svg Community Portal/en: Information and licence SemiPD-icon.svg in all our languages as translated here. -jkb- 12:46, 15 September 2012 (EDT)

In any event these last points about names are fairly minor. I’ve simplified the wording for en, fr and es. If we agree on the principal points the rest of this should be easy. Eclecticology 14:37, 16 September 2012 (EDT)

Well, one point is if we agree (and, in fact, who should agree, as the discussion was held by us two only), the other point is what and how to make it. And, I think, it is not as simple. If we take your new template:pma with the new simplified code (which I like), we became a difficulty with the localization. The text you use now is only in English (is not localized). My personal preferences are Czech, sometimes German here, but the notice on the licence on the bottom is English anyway (i.e. the template is in English in all cases). To localize it is possible but not as simple. The old (comlicated) template:pma had the advantage that it used some other templates (template:PD-old-50 etc.) that are localized yet. The localization of the new pma would need a more complicated system which would have to be tested separately. -jkb- 10:32, 17 September 2012 (EDT)
I had an idea how to arrange the localization of the new pma, and I think I will test it in the next two days. -jkb- 04:10, 20 September 2012 (EDT)

I’ll look forward to seeing that. It leaves me wondering if there is any way to put all the localizations for a given piece of text on the same page instead of a separate page for each language. Eclecticology 03:29, 24 September 2012 (EDT)

Project:Localization

Is there any reason why, in the sidebar section of this page, there is both a plain and a "url" version for these links? Eclecticology 00:23, 14 September 2012 (EDT)

AFAIK: url is the url of the special page, the plain version is the title of it (each language has both terms localised). -jkb- 03:12, 14 September 2012 (EDT)

Are the "url" versions being used at all? When I looked at MediaWiki:Currentevents-url I found the page was deleted in 2006. Someone feeling the need to generate localizations may just be creating pages that will never be used. My inclination is to delete all these "url" pages. Eclecticology 14:29, 14 September 2012 (EDT)

No, don't delete them, those that are activated wouldn't work. The url's are important for the sidebar. -jkb- 11:21, 15 September 2012 (EDT)

Is there any way of knowing which ones are in fact activated? Eclecticology 16:00, 15 September 2012 (EDT)

I guess not activated (and at present not needed) are those which you can see as a red link in the localization, e.g. Scriptorium in Czech, Chinese etc., and other ones. (But maybe in the future??) -jkb- 09:55, 16 September 2012 (EDT)

Unfortunately, "what links here" does not work for these MediaWiki phrases. :( Using search doesn’t seem to help either. I think some of the translations were often nothing more than somebody thinking this was a good thing to do, and having no idea about how they might be used. It’s difficult to decide between what would break another page, and getting rid of clutter. Eclecticology 15:34, 16 September 2012 (EDT)

Hi Eclecticology, no, tools like "what links here" do not work with system messages; and more over, such system messages (see some more thousands of them in Special:AllMessages) are only the "visible part" of the MediaWiki software and they should be handled with care (they do not bother anyone - do they). Thus, it is better if you don't care of them as a change sometimes can bring some problems later on. -jkb- 10:33, 17 September 2012 (EDT)
Btw. I can translate some of these messages into Polish but there is a problem to put them in MediaWiki space because it can only an admin... Electron   05:25, 21 September 2012 (EDT)

WL very slow

Hello,

Today, Wikilivres is very slow. It takes at least 10 seconds to display a small page, and then again 10 seconds to be able to edit it. Any idea what's the matter? Yann 04:18, 21 September 2012 (EDT)

Not only today. Yesterday was the same... And not only yesterday... Generally the transfer is not very fast, especially if somebody is from Europe. Electron   05:30, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
After I started to edit here again in mid August I had to state that WL is very slow compared with the time before. But in the last (about) 6 days it is extremely slow. 10 seconds to wait??? OMG, I would be happy to wait 10 seconds only :-) -jkb- 06:44, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
You are right. Last time the speed goes down constantly... And if you want edit you should be veeeery patient ;) Maybe the server provider has some problems or doing some works on it that lowed the speed? Electron   07:03, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
I experience slow speed as well.--Jusjih 12:42, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
My apologies for being offline with hardware problems he last few days. I’m on a new laptop now. The slowness appears to be from sharing a server with wikilovesmonuments.ca. Traffic on that has been unexpectedly high. If things don’t get better after month’s end we’ll need to look at alternative answers. Eclecticology 03:14, 24 September 2012 (EDT)

Headers and Titles

I’ve been thinking about the way we add headers and titles to substantive articles. Author pages are not a part of the present discussion. Footers at the bottom of a page will also be a different subject for a later time. It’s enough to say for now that what doesn’t belong in a header would go to the footer, as would also some things that have been put over to an article’s talk page.

In English alone there are at least three separate templates: "Header", "Title" and "Poem". In other languages there is a similar situation, many of these templates imported from the Wikisource in its own language. There is still a great deal of similarity in the way these templates operate. Much of this can probably be reduced to a single simplified template, or at most one for each language.

The first question to be asked is what must be in a header. I would limit this to the title, section, author, translator, continuity of sections, notes and a link to the footer. Anything else? Eclecticology 03:41, 26 September 2012 (EDT)

I find that the Poem template works very well for poems.--Poetlister 17:03, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
I don’t doubt that it does. Others could say the same about other templates with a similar function. Apart from the colour, what makes it preferable to the others? Eclecticology 21:30, 26 September 2012 (EDT)

Author parameter

The "override author" function in these templates does not appear to work on this site, and I haven’t seen any evidence that it has ever been used. We would do well without it I understand that it originated with the notion that simply typing the author’s name would result in the automatic creation of a link to the author page. That’s fine. The awkward phrase "override author" purports to act when we want something other than a simple linked author name. Something simpler, like beginning the data with a "[" as the override could be more efficient. Eclecticology 05:28, 4 October 2012 (EDT)

Upload by URL broken

Hello,

Upload by URL is broken. This is quite useful to transfer files threaten to be deleted on Commons. Since I have a slow connection, it is much faster. Yann 00:50, 10 October 2012 (EDT)

James Elroy Flecker

I am proposing to upload all the poems of James Elroy Flecker. Normally, as he died in 1915, this would be inappropriate. However, what has been done on Wikisource is not right. Apart from the fact that very few poems have been uploaded there, and nothing has happened recently, the mistake has been made of following the "Collected Poems". See my comments here. I should be grateful if people would please confirm that they are content with my proposal.--Poetlister 18:03, 3 November 2012 (EDT)

I agree. While I don’t know anything about Flecker in particular, a lot of poetry-loving editors seem to operate under the misapprehension that what appears in someone’s collected poems represents a unique form for each poem. Many poems first appeared in some magazine, and were only later brought together in collections. This gave the writers the opportunity to make "corrections" to the original text. The order in which the poems appear in a collection is often arbitrary. Eclecticology 07:10, 4 November 2012 (EST)

Canadian copyrights

The revisions that expand users rights in Canadian copyright law have come into effect: http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6692/125/ Much of this relates to fair dealing, and could be the basis for our own future policy on this matter. Eclecticology 14:01, 8 November 2012 (EST)

Linking from Wikisource

This is just a quick message to let users here know that English Wikisource now supports links to Wikilivres in page headers. If you want to create a link from Wikisource, just add | wikilivres = PAGENAME to the header template and it will appear alongside the links to Wikipedia et al. For example: Author:Gordon Bottomley. - AdamBMorgan 08:11, 9 November 2012 (EST)

Error: no such file

Could please somebody check the reason for the following breakdown of listed projects?

Index:Doktor Haldens Patient.djvu

Doktor Haldens Patient

The single pages still exists ...

eg. Page:Doktor Haldens Patient.djvu/45

Thanks--Wassermann 08:26, 22 November 2012 (EST)

The problem also occurs here Index:Swinnen - Apprendre Python, 2010.djvu, Apprendre à programmer avec Python/1, Index:Diels-Kranz - Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, Zweiter Band, 1959.djvu, Index:Photography Theory And Practice OCRed.djvu, Photography: Theory and Practice/Chapter 1 and on each project using pagelist. Can this be fixed?--Wassermann 10:11, 22 November 2012 (EST)
I removed pagelist from my projects and replaced it by [[Page:Doktor Haldens Patient.djvu/1|1]] etc. within the index file and by {{Page:Doktor Haldens Patient.djvu/1}} etc. on the summary project page. However, the djvu preview for the proofread pages still not work. So the problem is may related to the allready above mentioned unsolved subject, too. See Project:Community Portal/en#djvu preview and index-creation failed. --Wassermann 11:21, 22 November 2012 (EST)

Transcluding a single section fails

I am trying to use the section feature as described on english ws. It seems that ## section label ## is interpreted, but the resulting html code ( etc.) not. My sample page is Page:Pauly-Wissowa_XIV,1,_0031.png, and the transcluding page is RE:Lysimachos 3. Perhaps the extension LabeledSectionTransclusion is needed, required by ProofRead Page and in fact installed e.g. on English WS, but not here. Could somebody please help? K67y 23:55, 21 December 2012 (EST)

  • Why is transclusion necessary? Simple copy and paste would work just as well. The results would be more easily searched and annotated. Eclecticology 07:45, 24 December 2012 (EST)
      • Thank you for raising these issues; they are fundamental to the future direction of this site. I would welcome more voices on these questions. Regrettably, my weakness is in understanding how the underlying software works. I think there are two features that need to be emphasized about the material we host here: accuracy and usefulness. Transclusion does a lot to insure accuracy, but makes it difficult to develop the static material into an integrated whole. Where dos the tranition occur? For example, I have a copy of W. H. Roscher’s Ausführliches Lexicon der griechischen und römischen Mythologie which deals with much of the same material as Pauly-Wissowa. If were fortunate enough to have both works on this site, how would we draw connections between the two? Both works have a dense system of references built into each of their articles. How do we provide for connections to this other information? How do we relate to similar materials in other languages? I don’t have any particular objections to the German Wikisource as such, but other contributors bring with them experiences with the templates and ideas of Wikisources in other languages. What is our basis for deciding which of these will be best for us in a multilingual environment? Eclecticology 21:18, 26 December 2012 (EST)